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    "You are really cool you are married to an European!! How cooler can you be??"
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    "Oh, you did not ask for Bonhoeffer's opinion did you? You wanted mine..."
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    Kind Kristi

    "I enjoy your comments, but they are always delightfully enigmatic"
    Dyspraxic Fundamentalist

Thursday, January 18, 2007

Where am I headed with this?

I want to offer this scripture for consideration and dicussion:

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2nd Timothy 2

Does this relate to your motives for spreading the Gospel message in any way?



Blogger Mrs Zeke said...

It does for me. I can cook the meal but if God has not given me a table to set it on then there is none who can sit and eat. I became painfully aware of this with our middle daughter.

No matter what we did it did not sway her from self destruction and deceit of others. Even her "salvation" was a for the benefit of attempting to gain more trust from us. We put everything beautiful before her and yet there was no table if you will for her to view it .

Now is a different matter God finally made Himself known to her and the questions and search she is on now is real and not done for man. So I guess she needed to go the way she did even though it was so very painful for us to watch.

As Christians we don't have control over someone else's salvation, sure it would be easy if we did but we don't and no perfect or at least we think perfect word from our mouth is going to go anywhere with anyone if God does kiss it.

So who are we not to be meek or patient with others? We were there ourselves, so really how dare we be any other way.

The ones who really make our life hard often turn out to be rockin Christians later :)

Its not about us I think we forget that.

Be loved

1/18/2007 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Lady Zeke, your thoughts took me back a bit but helped me to further realize all that this scripture indicates. You’re right of course. I think many today believe that they save people through their own power and not the power of God’s word through them. We expect others to hear “us” when we all need to hear “Him”.

1/18/2007 03:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Gordon Cloud said...

The way I see this relating to my motive is that it is my calling. It is a means to an end, to be sure, but it is God's means to God's end and not mine.

My motivation in this should be obedience to God, not trying to force something to happen in man.

1/18/2007 03:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In context, this scripture seems to be talking about ministering to those in the church, not specifically evangelism. But we all know there is often chances to do both at the same time. It does get to the heart of my questions about evangelism, though.

why? - love for others and trust in God

how? - with kind and gentle instruction

That's my 2 cents. Thanks for this scripture, too KC. It will give me some wonderful, more meaningful, things to chew on ;-)

1/18/2007 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Preacher thanks for helping out here.

Would you say it is impossible for a man to be persuaded to believe in Christ Jesus?

Missy, thanks for finding time to join in. I know you're very busy at present.

I can understand why these that are opposed to themselves could be considered contentious believers but do you think a believer could be taken captive by the devil at his will?

1/18/2007 05:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It seems to be what this is saying, so I looked up other translations and got a lot of different skews.

KJV - "...taken captive by him at his will."

NIV - "...who has taken them captive to do his will."

Amp - "...having been held captive by him, [henceforth] to do His [God's] will."

NKJV - "...taken captive by him to do his will."

Most of them say something similar as "to do his will" - the KJV was the only one to say "at his (Satan's) will".

The Ampliflied Bible's take on it intrigued me.

Thanks, KC, no sleep tonight. Unless of course my concordance becomes my pillow! :)

I am not positive this refers to believers, but in context it seems to me that it would, so to study I go...

If anyone knows, I would appreciate a break!

1/18/2007 06:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Gordon Cloud said...

KC, I believe that a man can be persuaded to accept Christ. It has much to do with the presentation of the Gospel, and of course it cannot happen without the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

I happen to believe that the Holy Spirit draws those who hear.

1/18/2007 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Missy, I'm so sorry. I should have considered you in light of your current post. ;-)

Could it be that these verses reflect the work we should do as "vessels of honor" as opposed to internal bickering and vain disputes?

Preacher you probably already know we agree. ;-)
I think these verses detail a method of evangelism unknown to most these days.

1/19/2007 03:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was only up until 2am - but in large part due to the beautiful snow that began to fall and mesmerize me.

KC, my gramatic hurdle in this scripture to confirming your understanding is "recover" and the fact that the entire chapter deals with the relationships in the church. But I also see that it could easily segue into the next chapter discussing the evils in the world. So I am left with "recover" - still working on it...

BTW - the "will" used in this scripture is the same word typically used to describe the will (or desire) of God, and on rare occasion that of man. The word translated "captive" here would literally translate to "prisoner of war." I am beginning to develop some thoughts...

1/19/2007 07:35:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Missy, I wish I could see the snow. ;-)

Sis would it be better to perceive these verses as detailing a method for discipling? I think that might fit better with Christ' command to teach the "all things" considering evangelism as only the first, albeit essential and critical, step toward discipling.

I think there's much room for debate concerning Satan's ability to influence a believer and I would love to follow a good study on that subject if *someone* cared to offer it. (grin)

1/20/2007 05:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Sis would it be better to perceive these verses as detailing a method for discipling?"

I am not qualified to determine what is better, but at this point, that would be my understanding. And yes, I would agree that evangelism is the first step in discipling. So the answer to your question, "Does this relate to your motives for spreading the Gospel message in any way?", would be "Yes."

As a result of your intriguing comment concerning Satan's ability to influence a believer, and some personal battles with sin of course, the Mr. and I are embarking on a study. Our only directions to date are Adam and Job, one man who WALKED with God and was still infuenced by Satan, and another, later rewarded by God for his faith, was allowed to greatly suffer at the hands of Satan. I am sure that "WHY" will be at the heart of the debate!

1/21/2007 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Missy & Mister, That is so kewl! I really look forward to reading your findings.

One thing I would ask is if you can determine scripturally whether Satan's influence on a believer is limited to only external actions or if he is allowed to invade the heart and mind as well. IOW, can Satan make a believer turn over his will to him? My belief that he cannot is the only reason for my thinking that those referenced as doing Satan's will are not believers. If the scripture indicates he is allowed to force believers to submit to his will that would alter my understanding of this passage as inclusive of evangelism and therefore limited in scope as you suggest.

Thanks so much for all your effort! ;-)

1/22/2007 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger Antonio said...

I agree with missy. It is not talking about evangelism.

Have a good day!


1/23/2007 11:24:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Antonio, I will have to say that you and Missy are in excellent company! ;-)

May God continue to bless you dear brother.

1/24/2007 03:39:00 AM  

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