"You are really cool you are married to an European!! How cooler can you be??"
Fisherman Pecheur
"Smarty Pants"
Mad Matt
"Oh, you did not ask for Bonhoeffer's opinion did you? You wanted mine..."
the SOFYST
"You are like the master at this "feelings" stuff!
Kind Kristi
"I enjoy your comments, but they are always delightfully enigmatic"
Dyspraxic Fundamentalist
It’s been difficult for me to accept this but after these years of reading the theoblogs I’ve finally had to accept the sad fact that I’m the only person who is saved because, according to everyone else but me, everyone else but me does or does not do or believes or does not believe something that makes it impossible for everyone else but me to be saved!
offered by Kc | 7/02/2007 09:55:00 AM
28 Comments:
The very reason I've always envied you...
...well, that, and that you still live in the south.
I always heard the road was narrow.
KC
I think that you believe that I believe that you believe you got the believes all out of order ?
I believe if you blog for another 20 or more years that you will know and believe you ain't the only one saved ?
Blessings.
Ron.
KC, I understand your tongue in cheek.
But missy makes a firm point.
The road to life is both narrow and constricted, there is only one way.
But good news:
Jesus promises irrevocable eternal life to the one who simply trusts in Him to do so.
Men and women have the tendency to complicate simple things.
Thus, what makes receiving eternal life so hard is its inherent simplicity.
Antonio
PS: You would be lying if you said that some of your frustrations were not on account of some of my posts.
And Casey,
I am a bit puzzled.
Truth matters my friend. Men and women don't just end up in the kingdom because they believe any ol' thing.
From our discussions together I get the idea that your inclusivism can be dangerous.
Of course you would charge me with exclusivism.
But that, my friend, is Jesus' position.
"If you knew the gift of God and who it says to you, 'Give me a drink'..." (John 4:13)
Antonio
I had an inclination that God had only elected you to salvation. Now, I know. My premonition was true. You are the only one saved!
It sure relieves a lot of pressure off me. Since I ain't got a chance, I think I can really start living it up.
Can I just leave you with a verse of Scripture, "Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. "?
All kidding aside. Thanks for the call. It was an uplifter.
Kc,
Antonio is accussing you of being an inclusivist! Whoah.
Can it be true?
I'm confused!? So I'm not included? I wish someone would just tell me so I can get on with it...
KC, I keep coming back to this post thinking between the lines, so to speak. (Before you ask, I am in one of my up-all-night-thinking modes!)
Antonio, I am confused. It seems that you have commented two opposing views? Are you playing both sides of a debate?
First you said,
"Jesus promises irrevocable eternal life to the one who simply trusts in Him to do so. Men and women have the tendency to complicate simple things. Thus, what makes receiving eternal life so hard is its inherent simplicity."
Then you said,
"Truth matters my friend. Men and women don't just end up in the kingdom because they believe any ol' thing. From our discussions together I get the idea that your inclusivism can be dangerous."
Does all truth matter - only some - or only one? Is it simple or is it complicated?
PS - I apologize for sounding curt; I have a pounding headache. :(
Hey Missy,
I am just a simple man. I can't understand my contradiction.
Receiving eternal life is simple.
All truth is important, sure. But not all truth saves.
The truth that the front of my yard and driveway would lend to the idea that white trash lives within is not saving knowledge (I have been spring cleaning out my shed and getting things ready for the swap meet).
The only truth that matters which is salvific is the promise of Jesus Christ whereby He guaranteed irrevocable eternal life to the one who simply believes in Him to do so.
But as I said, it can be quite difficult to find the right gate when so many people are pointing to the wrong ones.
I am sure that I have not done justice to your problems with my two comments. Maybe you can clarify if I did not answer your confusion of my words.
Antonio
Ok after thinking a while, I understand.
Me and KC have a running debate.
You will probably see things his way, in light of the fact I am an extremist.
Casey believes that anyone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God is saved. Now of course he would put some content into the concept of "Son of God", but as I have read him in our posts together, the term can have quite a bit of latitude to include a substantially larger group of people.
My position is that one must believe that Jesus guarantees for them eternal security. In other words, I believe that in order to be saved, one must believe Jesus in His specific promises.
The promises of Christ are found in John 3:16; 5:24; 6:35-40, 47; 11:25, 26. My position is that only those who believe in Jesus through His promise are saved. Thus I have an exclusivism.
You cannot believe those verses and at the same time not believe you are eternally secure. It is impossible. If you believe those verses, you are certain you are eternally secure.
John 3:16
"shall not perish"
John 5:24
"has ETERNAL life, and WILL NOT come into judgment, but has already passed from death unto life"
John 6:35
"shall never hunger"
"shall never thirst"
John 6:37
"the one who comes to me I will by NO MEANS cast out"
John 6:38-39
"... I have come ... to do ... the will of Him who sent Me... this is [His] will [:] I should lose nothing but raise it up on the last day"
John 6:40
"I will raise him up at the last day"
John 6:47
"has ETERNAL life"
John 11:25
"he SHALL live"
John 11:26
"shall NEVER die"
"shall, by no means, ever die even unto eternity" (my translation from the Greek; uses the emphatic denial "ou me" and "eis twn aiown" (into eternity)
Faith is being persuaded or convinced something is true.
If you believe Christ in His statement, you must believe youself eternally saved.
Only if you doubt His statement will you not be sure.
He is emphatic:
The believer shall:
not perish
will not come into judgment
has passed from death to life
has eternal life
never hunger
never thirst
will not be cast out
will not be lost
will be raised
shall live
and
shall never die
These are the clear, explicit assertions by Christ concerning the believer in Him.
If you believe in Him, you will by necessity believe that you are eternally secure at that same moment.
To doubt that you are eternally saved, is to doubt Christ in His promise.
And how can there be salvation if you doubt Jesus (in other words, not believe Him)?
Antonio
For a little more meat on the bones of what I said in this comment section, please refer to my latest post on Free Grace Theology Blog, which includes an airtight illustration:
You Can't Beleive Jesus and At The Same Time Doubt You Are Eternally Secure
Antonio
So because I get caught up in doubt wrought by my own silly insecurities sometimes placing myself as the central figure in my faith, denying Christ this position; or I am dense and have not worked out quite what it means to have eternal life; or I've heard and believed in the Gospel of Christ but never read these promises, I am not saved? If there is a promise I know nothing of, I can't have it?
First, this sounds exactly the opposite of your last post.
Second, is there any reason you leave out the actual object of belief each of these promises are based on? Every one says the same thing.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5: 24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes HIM WHO SENT ME has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6: 35-40 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who COMES TO ME will never go hungry, and he who believes IN ME will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever COMES TO ME I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes IN HIM shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes IN ME will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes IN ME will never die. Do you believe this?"
And what was her anwser and the answer of Peter that was recorded for the millions to read for centuries?
John 11:27 "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
For most, I think, it isn't a matter of not believing Jesus' promises, but believing that we fully understand what the scripture is saying or what his words actually mean.
As for me, I would much rather err on the side of humility and admit I know not than to err on the side of arrogance and assume I know it all - including the very status of your salvation.
Missy,
First off, my position never states that subsequent to saving faith assurance cannot be lost. Whenever, and for whatever reason, we take our eyes off of Christ in His promise, we will lack assurance.
But my position states that at the moment of saving faith, one is certain that they have irrevocable eternal life, for faith precludes doubt and vice-versa. If you believe in Jesus through His promise, you therefore deem what He says is true. Therefore you deem yourself eternally secure, because that is what He promises and you believe His promise therefore deem His promise true!
I am glad you bring up John 11:25-26.
Jesus states unequivocally that as the Resurrection, everyone who believes in Him, even if they die, they will live.
Jesus states unequivocally that as the Life, whoever lives and believes in Him will never die.
Jesus then asks:
"Do you belive this?"
He does not say
"Do you believe in Me?"
The "this" is his assertion that He guarantees eternal life and resurrection to the one who believes in Him for it.
When Martha answers "Yes, I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God" this mirrors Johns purpose statement in John 20:30, 31.
Isn't it odd that she would answer the way she did when He asked her "Do you believe this?"
Not when you compare it to the purpose of John's gospel in John 20:31.
You see, to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is to believe "this". And as we have already noted, the "this" is the assertion or proposition that Jesus Christ is the Guarantor of eternal life and resurrection to the believer in Him.
To continue:
You state that salvation comes from believing "in Him" or in other words, faith in Jesus Christ. I agree with that statement. But as we know, there must be a specific content to that faith involved.
It is legitamate to say "I believe in Jesus" and mean "I believe that He existed". We speak that way all the time. Or I can say "I believe in Jesus" and mean "I believe that He will answer my prayers".
But neither of us would agree that the content of that faith "in Him", consisting of "His existence" of "the answer to prayer", would bring eternal life. At least I hope you would agree that to believe Jesus existed is not saving!
When we speak of "faith in" someone, it is shorthand. There is implied content to that faith, that is usually picked up by the context.
For instance. If I said "I believe in the airline pilot" or equally I could say "I trust the airline pilot" when I was talking to a friend on my way to a chartered flight to the Bahamas, the implied content could be supplied by assent to propositions about that pilot:
I believe that the airline pilot is a professional, highly trained plane operator, skilled in flying, troubleshooting, emergency issues, flight safety, etc. I believe that he is able to conduct affairs sufficiently so that I will reach my destination.
I submit that to "believe in Him", in other words, to believe in Jesus, is to believe the "that" which He asks Martha if she believes. In other words, to believe in Jesus is to believe that He is the Guarantor of irrevocable eternal life to the believer in Him for it.
Listen. Nefarious and ethereal and ambiguous beliefs about or in Jesus will not bring salvation. Specific content is required, as I am sure you would agree according to my examples above.
The specific content is the "this".
Jesus asked Martha if she believed "this".
Jesus told the woman at the well "If you knew the gift of God and who it says to you, 'Give Me a drink'..."
It really is that simple. There is no creed to learn, no doctrinal hoops to jump through.
One simply must trust Jesus in His promise to impart eternal security to the one who takes Him at His word for it.
Antonio
Missy, you conclude your comment this way:
----------
As for me, I would much rather err on the side of humility and admit I know not than to err on the side of arrogance and assume I know it all - including the very status of your salvation.
----------
Is this a criticism of me? I hope not. I have not determined anyone's salvation. I have not claimed to "know it all" nor am I here claiming anything arrogantly.
If this is criticism of me, I believe that you are off-base. I would not appreciate those remarks.
I will, however give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are talking generally.
Antonio
Dorsey no need for envy. There’s room here for you too! ;-)
Missy while I admire your devotion and desire to attend to the things of God I’ll be tempted to stop posting any thought provoking articles if you don’t stop obsessing! :;-)
Grandpa I think I’m already starting to see that (grin)
Antonio it would be most unfair for you to take the brunt of the implications I’ve made in my article and though I would disagree with much of what you’ve been posting recently, it was my morning review of the theoblogs that I follow that prompted this post. I honestly consider the culprit Systematic Theology.
As for you I must admit that, among other things, I find you most hardheaded, stubborn and willful and I consider these only a few of the gifts you posses that are required of a faithful missionary! ;-)
I do, however, very much appreciate the opportunity to wrestle over these things once more and I will do my best to address your points in a manner fitting to your effort just as soon as the coffee is flowing in my veins.
Pech you trouble maker! (hehe) Brother that call was for purely selfish reasons and blessed me to no end. Amber is here and I hope she will be able to talk to Lady R sometime during the day.
I apologize, Antonio. I was in a persnickety mood yesterday and was not really attacking you personally. Primarily I was caught up in thoughts very similar to KC's and also feeling very defensive. I am one who has been struggling sometime with the concept of eternal assurance, and now I feel like you were saying because of this I am not even saved. And the reality of what you have said is you can't have it both ways. If you believe that salvation is through the belief in these promises and doubt indicates you have no faith, then one can have no doubt.
In working out my eternal assurance the last several months, (thanks to a very patient and thought-provoking person) I have come to understand that I must be saved through my faith in Christ alone. Of course this would mean that I also would have faith in his promises. But I think you've put the cart before the horse. Your interpretation implies that one must understand these promises to be saved. My faith is such that Christ keeps his promises, as God has done throughout creation, whether I understand them or not.
KC, I will obsess with or without your thought provoking posts. It's my nature. Your posts have more often than not brought a peaceful end to those obsessions - and I believe had me focus on those things I should. Without you I would still be stuck obsessing over the fate of water trapped in bottles.
Jesus makes me nuts.
One minute, He makes it easy. The next minute, He seems to make it crazy hard.
I still don't know what "Son of God" means, but I believe that Jesus, the Christ, is the Lord, and I believe that God raised Him from the dead. Beyond that, the only truth that matters is the law of love. I find myself having less and less time and patience to argue all the other stuff.
Very well Missy. You be you and I’ll be me and we’ll love each other in the Lord in spite of it. ;-)
Antonio I can’t find it in myself to frame this discussion with you as a debate. The only thing that comes to mind is to offer you my perception of your article and let you analyze my reasoning.
I consider the scope of your article equivalent to the scope of 1st John 5:1-13 in that both propose the certainty of eternal life. Where the verses in John would build up the believer’s assurance in eternal life because of his faith in Christ, I find your article tears down faith in Christ because of an uncertainty in eternal security.
Hi KC...
Well, this is shocking news! :)
Blessings
It was hard on me too Pastor. ;-)
I'm so sorry about Andrew & Casey. I hope Andrew is okay.
Sir, what must I do to be saved?
:):)
KC, I just had to stop and leave a comment; that was too funny bro!
God bless,
Jim
Hi KC,
Yes, Andrew is ok. Do you and Corry want a completely loveable Australian Shepherd???
He needs a good home... and we don't want to get rid of him. :(
Blessings
KC,
What I've learned is " I've never gotten over being saved ! "
What else I've learned is that to many good blogsites has gotten the blogging blues !
Miss ya, hope every thing is ok ?
Blessings.
Ron.
I'm coming in kinda late, here, but I'm glad one of us is going to make it. ;-)
Sorry everyone!
Kris John 3:16! ;-)
Jim it's great to see you out and about! I miss hearing your wisdom on a regular basis but thanks so much for the visit.
Pastor I wish I could help but the two pets we have don't get the attention they need these days. :(
Brother Ron don't ever get over that! ;-)
I'm sorry we've been away but so much is going on and Corry and I both have been sick. I hope we can get back to blogging some this week. :-)
Preacher I'm afraid you're too late to celebrate now. The Pope has made it clear I couldn't possibly be saved.
All kidding aside it seems that most every denomination and formal system of theology exisit for the purpose of dividing the wheat from the chaff and I find the scripture teaches that's not our place.
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