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Tuesday, July 25, 2006

More tension

“… we can look at the will, but what is so clear is that the will for God cannot be without the New Creation. This is where the tension lay…” – Bhedr
This is a crucial point in my understanding. We (most) all agree that apart from God man is incapable of serving Him. How can we submit to Christ apart from Him? I am persuaded it is impossible. There are those who would say then that it is determined that all who believe will submit and that failure to submit is therefore indication of non-belief. I only ask your understanding of these verses:

1 Corinthians 5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Do these verses indicate that this man ever submitted to Christ? Did this man possess eternal life? If not then how will his spirit be saved in that day?

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13 Comments:

Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Well, we find out in 2 Corinthians that he repented.

Notice that his salvation in this text is connected to the destruction of his flesh. If he was an unbeliever you might expect Paul to say-

"Put him out that he may see that he is not a believer."

I would connect this passage to 1 Cor 11:

32 "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

The reason that God judges believers so severely is that it is will for for us to be separated from the world which is heading for judgment.

If we live as the world does, the Lord would rather that we were dead and away from the flesh.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

7/25/2006 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger Kristi said...

Hi Kc!

Yep, I agree that he did possess eternal life.

While it is only reasonable and ideal that all of God's children would submit to Him, unfortunately their is a great lack of sound Bible teaching and solid Christian examples to feed the Spirit of these new believers. Rather they continue in the only thing they have known--their flesh. Thus, their salvation makes no tangible difference in their life, but they will still be spared from Hell.

7/25/2006 08:04:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Matthew thanks and we agree however could you enlighten me to the verses in 2nd Corinthians that point to his repentance? Do you see him as one who caused grief in chapter 2? If so could this not be the ones who caused division from 1st Cor. Ch. 1 and not this man?

Kristi! Welcome back to bloggerville dear one. You've been sorely missed. ;-)
I can see from your comment you're no worse for ware and you've offered an excellent perspective IMHO.

7/25/2006 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

I think it is generally thought that the man in 2 Cor 2 is the same chap. Note it is an individual, while a large number of individuals were involved in the divisions of the first epistle.

God Bless

Matthew

7/25/2006 11:49:00 AM  
Blogger Jayne said...

Alive and well! :) Just wanted to pop in and say hi.

It is my understanding that by accepting that Jesus died for our sins that my salvation is granted. Thus, my struggles are a fight to no one but me. I've already accept the salvation, so give up the fight...and if I did, I could serve God so much better!

7/25/2006 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

Hi, KC, I agree with you and Kristi for agreeing with Matthew. I believe the man was saved and that the "destruction of the flesh" is definitely God's way of chastising him and bringing him to repentance.

7/25/2006 02:49:00 PM  
Blogger Jim said...

KC:

Good post, I think your line of reasoning here is quite solid.

This story is in fact a sad account of one who definitely fell from grace. Scripture is quite clear that this man was not a false professor or anything of the sort, but rather a believer who gave place to the devil.

I do agree with Matthew however that this is the same man in 2 Cor. who was restored to fellowship.

God bless,
Jim

7/25/2006 04:10:00 PM  
Blogger Bhedr said...

Hey KC,

I see I have made the headlines.

Yes it is a good chance this is the same believer. Paul is also making known the possibility that he has committed the sin unto death. You put him out and see what happens...never know what God will do. Here he uses the body of Christ to discipline and this brings fear and a reality check that probably brought him to repentance and turning from being a carnal christian.

I think this further makes the case for the tension argument though.

Paul said it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me when making referance to his own sin. Not as gross, but just as greivous to God.

He also said"For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good, I find not."

Peter said that the one who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Chastening breaks us of sin or God may decide to kill the flesh. It is his choice, but the fact remains that the flesh cannot choose good, let alone God..only the new creation and they war against each other. After the sinner is saved, he is then given the power to will and synergistically work with God to become Holy in practice as he already is in position. Unfortunately the flesh is strong and the wrong choices will lead to death as a beleiver. As a believer he has the freedom to choose righteousness and the power to do so. Before he is saved he is enslaved only to sin and has no source to choose right. The tension comes between the two and how God imparts new life, quickening and awakening the sinner unto faith by the word of the promise and by other means to prepare his heart to receive the truth.

The woman at the well was prepared by years of broken hopes at a well that constantly left her empty.

In a nanosecond the Philipian Jailer was prepared by an earthquake. God is very diverse in how he works to bring us all to the same truth, but the fact still remains that we do not seek after God naturally and that the Old Adam is completely fallen as a shattered glass in a septic tank.

Remember John the Baptist called us a nest of snakes and Jesus reaffirmed that. Amazing love that would leave heavens throne to live among a nest of snakes that would turn and bite Him. He died for those serpents though and nailed them to the cross. Now they are new creations and glorious being renewed into his image and an even greater glory than they were prior to becoming serpents.

Now that is love. Would you die for a serpent?

Perhaps you would if you remembered that the master serpent robbed them from you and made them like him. Your heart would burn jealously and your love would be everlasting to win them back.

Ironically the serpent himself was the most glorious of creatures prior to the fall as well.

7/25/2006 08:26:00 PM  
Blogger Bhedr said...

BTW,

While I agree with you that not all christians submit like they should, I do still believe there are many mental assenters in America who have been sold in quicksale evangelism and methodology and have not been called to repentance and faith in Christ. Even though I agree with you guys on this point I still hold to this truth and am concerned that in America we are not alerting people to the truth as we are accountable too, but instead are making quicksale inroads to develope numbers and boast of rights and credits.

7/25/2006 08:36:00 PM  
Blogger Jim said...

Bhedr,

I think you are making more sense everytime I read your comments. God bless you for seeking the truth and unity.

You obviously have a solid grasp of biblical understanding which the Holy Spirit is using to reveal the wondrous mysteries hidden from the natural mind.

In Christ,
Jim

7/25/2006 10:39:00 PM  
Blogger Bhedr said...

Thanks Jim,

May God be with us all in the same endeavor. He is good.
I enjoy your comments as well.

Brian

7/25/2006 10:48:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Matthew thanks for your understanding on this. I will prayerfully reconsider my own.

Jayne it is wonderful to hear from you! Your comment reminded me of a favorite hymn, “Victory in Jesus”. ;-)

Gordon thanks for your thoughts and welcome back to the grind! ;-)

Jim thanks so much. Along with Matthew and Brian you’ve provoked me to reconsider the outcome of this man as revealed by the scripture.

Brian I think you offer some excellent points that all of us might do well to consider and discuss and I’m thankful to be able to bring them forward on my site. You always cover so much ground in your comments and I’m afraid much of it gets lost before it can be fully considered. ;-)

I want to seize on one of your thoughts here to contrast what I will call “our” understanding to that of the Determinist and the Lordship Salvation proponent in my next post.

7/26/2006 07:05:00 AM  
Blogger Bhedr said...

Your very kind KC and thanks for the flowers, but I must give those blessings back to God..he is the one who gives all things. Again, I don't claim to have understood everything, but I do believe there is enough evidence on both courts to prove their case and therefore it leaves the jury hung...until that final day perhaps.

All each side has to do is provide a reasonable doubt and they have been doing this for centuries. Oddly though some of the greatest hymns were spawned out of the Arminian/Calvin controversies.

One of them was a Wesley hymn. The big time Arminian boys, but very familiar with Whitfield's stand.

"And Can it be that I should gain an intrest in the Saviours blood."

7/26/2006 07:06:00 PM  

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