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Friday, July 14, 2006

Don't blame me!

If my sin offends you don't blame me! I have no choice.

(For some background on this jab see here and here) ;-)

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18 Comments:

Blogger pecheur said...

I agree with you.

If I sin it is because it was my destiny. Nothing I could have done about it.

I feel my robot self pulling me away and celebrating Bastille Day.

Au revoir

7/14/2006 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger Kitty Cheng said...

so who should people blame if my sin offends them?

7/14/2006 11:23:00 AM  
Blogger Rose~ said...

KC,
You can't get away with that! You do have a choice - you are made in the image of God. If you had no choice, you could not be held responsible. ... and we all know that YOU will be held responsible!!!
;~)

7/14/2006 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Bhedr said...

I understand your frustration brother and can see why you believe as you do. It is a hard mystery to understand, but one that Paul nipped in the bud and made clear that it is not for us to know.Romans 9. This truth belongs to God. He is the one that made us.
I appreciate how you look past your frustration and love anyway.

In part Scripture would indicate the possibility that you and Rose are right, but other scripture hedges me from accepting your positions either. The fall shattered the image of God into the image of Satan. Thank God that he redeemed us and opened our eyes in spite of this. How he does it, well I don't know, but I do believe and so do you and that is all that matters praise God. It is a mystery and we should leave it at that.

God bless you brother.

7/14/2006 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger Jim said...

KC,

Your post on "Reformed or Roman" was right on. I think many reformed have sadly adopted a romanist view of grace.

God bless,
Jim

7/15/2006 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Mrs Zeke said...

hmmm, if I sin and I know it then I am to blame, but I do not have the right to point my finger at my brother or sister who sin and say because you have committed a sin (fill in the blank) .... or at least I think

However I will someday if not today stand corrected :)

Be loved cause you are

7/16/2006 12:23:00 PM  
Blogger Kitty Cheng said...

Yeah I love you in the Lord brother.

7/16/2006 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger Beth said...

Interesting quote. I don't quite know what to say about it.

What if we didn't say that to an offended person, to to the offened God? Now there's something to think about. It would give me the shivers.

7/17/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger Kris said...

But KC, if I can't blame you for the offense, then why am I commanded to forgive you?:)

If I am clearly commanded to forgive, then who am I suppose to forgive for the offense against me.....God? may it never be!

7/17/2006 04:01:00 PM  
Blogger nathaniel adam king said...

I wish all our debates could be lowered to such cheap attacks. I wish as well that I fallaciously assumed that responsibility and choice were as connected as God and love. Sadly, I see nothing within Scripture nor reason to persuade me or command me to believe such, therefore I choose not to believe such.

Pardon me while I go choose to do something that the God Almighty doesn't want me to do. Good thing I can choose to do such. Aint nothing in the world He can do to stop me. My choice is more powerful than He is.

7/18/2006 04:25:00 AM  
Blogger Kris said...

come on N.A.K. this post ain't no cheap attack. It is only a 'jab' to bring up a past debate to continue it.

I know very well most of what you believe and I believe it, in part, myself. I understand and know that all creation had no choice but to be created. We had no choice into what family we exist in. But God says choose this day whom you will serve. If we didn't have this God given ability to choose, then why does He command us to choose?

Choice is one of the greatest things in the gift of life given to us by our Creator. I believe what we choose to do or not do has effect on eternal things. The gift of life to mankind is mankind's ability to make choices that make history what history is on this earth that God commanded the first Adam to take dominion over. Even though man has failed from the start. This does not take away from a sovereign God, in fact it establishes His sovereignty. When we 'choose' this day whom we will serve we see and believe in our hearts that God truly is our Sovereign Creator. If we choose to not believe then we are blinded by the god of this world and His sovereignty will be seen by them when their knee will bow at the final judgment before they are cast into the lake of fire with no 'choice' in the matter.

But regardless of who's right or who's wrong about the sovereignty of God, I believe it won't even be an issue to prove when we believers are standing before the light of Son of God void of any human theological or demonic filters that have perverted the light of the true God and Creator who died for us while we were yet sinners.

7/18/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Anonymous kay said...

...said the axe murdered to the mother of the child he just hacked!

7/18/2006 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger nathaniel adam king said...

Kc, we've been over this before. Simply because you find 'choice' within the English translations, this doesn't necessarily mean that what we read as 'choice' is the typically understood definition of it. I mean, we don't always read every word within the Scripture literally. Unless you always read, 'the sun stood still' or 'the rivers clapped their hands' as actually the sun standing still and the rivers clapping their hands.

Do you?

No?

That is right, it is possible to read, 'the sun stood still' and know that it is not meaning 'the sun stood still', but rather 'the earth stood still'.

Likewise, in similar fashion, we shouldn't assume automatically that because we are told 'choose' that this means, 'you have the ability to do this or not'. It is quite possible, at least theoretically, to read this as a simple command. God tells us to serve someone. He is not necessarily putting out an undebated and qualitative comment concerning the ability of man concerning choice, but is giving a command for something to be done.

May I ask you something, you recognized that creation didn't have a choice to be created or not. I would agree completely and hope that none of the choice advocates would be so ardent in their love for choice as to make the ridiculous claim that choice MUST be present in every situation including the creation of a creature.

The question is this: if creation hadn't a choice to be created or not, is it still treated as a creation?

Meaning, I am a creature, yes, I didn't choose to be one though, does that mean I should be treated as a creature even though I didn't have a choice in the matter? Why am I not treated as a Creator?

7/18/2006 11:41:00 AM  
Blogger nathaniel adam king said...

That was addressed to Kris, I read wrong and thought Kc said it.

7/18/2006 05:14:00 PM  
Blogger Kris said...

Adam, how can you argue against 'choose this day whom you will serve' with the words "It is quite possible, at least theoretically" and honestly reason away that Joshua or God did not intend for those who heard this to be responsible and to 'choose this day'. Did God know who would choose? Of course He did.
Did God know Esau would sell his birthright for a bowl of stew? Of course He did. But no where does it say that God made Esau choose to sell his birthright, it only says that God hated Esau and loved Jacob.

The questions then are did God hate Esau and therefore make him choose stew? Or did God know Esau would choose stew and therefore hated him?

Your question:
"The question is this: if creation hadn't a choice to be created or not, is it still treated as a creation?"

Of course!
Let me detail your question further; If the human creature hadn't a choice to be created or not, is it still treated as a creature?

Of course! But if a human creature, who has a living soul, is created it has a "choice" to believe its created or not, don't you agree?(Romans 1:19) If it is not created it has no ability(soul) to choose, it does not even exist.

So since you haven't seen me, or been to my home in Okla., it is quite possible, theoretically, that I am a buddist, muslim, dolly lamber midget on the other side of the world pretending to be a Christian in Oklahoma conversing with you about our Creator for the last 2 and half years. But is it really possible after 2 1/2 years for you to really believe that I am a muslim midget?......wait don't answer that. LOL

7/18/2006 09:55:00 PM  
Blogger jeff said...

So, we DON'T have the ability to make a fre-will choice? It's all God's divine footprint on our lives?

God manufactures our disobedience, since we do not have choice. Then He manufactures our punishment for said disobedience, not to mention all the natural consequences we suffer for the disobedience He formed in us.

This kind of thinking justifies the total depravity doctrine, because one would have to be depraved to think up such nonsense.

(Somewhere, John Calvin has just coughed up a lung...)

7/19/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger dorsey said...

If Calvin had only coughed up that lung at birth, most of this nonsense could have been avoided.

7/19/2006 02:55:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Pech we are too cynical (grin). (A hug to the misses please. I have some news for you two.)

Great question Kitty! ;-)

Ya got me on that one Rose! ;-)

Brian, many thanks for your wisdom. I’ve followed your comments and I think we’re closer on this issue than it may seem but even if we’re not you are still a great blessing to me and I am happy to commend all to read your teachings and thoughts. Many blessings my brother.

Thanks Jim. I think it’s easy for all of us to lean that way if we’re not careful.

Mrs Zeke I appreciate your attitude so much. I would not say it is our right to condemn our brethren but I do believe that Jesus taught us to watch out for each other in these things. When we see our brethren openly sin we are to go to them in private and to pray for their forgiveness.
My thoughts and prayers continue for you all but I am thankful you’re all able to be together again.

And I love you as well dear sister Kitty. ;-)

Great point Sis. Beth!

Kay that is a very poignant reply! ;-)

Kris I know you and I have the same understanding on this issue and it seems that along with the Marshall brothers we won’t let our dear brother Adam have any peace on this matter. ;-)

Adam, my apologies for being tardy in my reply. Kris was right that the jab was offered in jest only to get the ball back into play and I’m confident you knew that. I do want to confess that I find all your arguments quite reasonable and I know that this is primarily a philosophical argument, but I do think we agree it is critical in understanding our relationship with God in Christ.

Even though I presented this as a jab I really do think it illustrates one of the major problems with determinism. Does God determine that we sin or does He allow it? We know that God is consistent and unchanging. We also know that when He looked on His creation He declared that it was very good. Had God created evil He would not call it good. Had He created Adam with a sinful nature He would not call it very good.

The scripture explains that we are tempted when we are drawn away by our own lust and also declares that God tempts no man. It is not possible that God ordains sin for He would have to do that which the scripture says He does not do and tempt a man to sin. This is most critical when considering the fall. God did not grant Adam or Eve with a sinful nature. He granted them the ability to reason and to make determinations for themselves. Adam, being tempted by his own lust, determined to trust in his own understanding rather than God’s word.

7/20/2006 06:12:00 AM  

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