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    "You are really cool you are married to an European!! How cooler can you be??"
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    "Smarty Pants"
    Mad Matt

    "Oh, you did not ask for Bonhoeffer's opinion did you? You wanted mine..."
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    Kind Kristi

    "I enjoy your comments, but they are always delightfully enigmatic"
    Dyspraxic Fundamentalist

Monday, July 03, 2006


Is it wise for me to strive to be completely self-centered in condemnation?



Blogger Rose~ said...

KC, what do you mean? Do you mean, is it wise to only condemn yourself and not others?

7/03/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

I am asking that Rose. I am persuaded we are to exercise good judgment, but what does that entail? If I am asked to affirm and uphold or reject and deny anything as being good or true then I must pass judgment. In those things I reject and deny I must condemn them as not good and/or not true. My question is this then; should I let my condemnation end with my own determination or does love obligate me to press my convictions on to my brother? My guess at present is that while I am obligated to make these determinations for myself and perhaps even obligated by love to urge my brother to consider them that I neither have the right nor responsibility to press him to accept them. If it involves an act and I find it offensive then I must go to him but eventually it is the Church that must decide between us. If it is a crime then the government must decide. If it is a belief then God must judge and my responsibility as well as my brother’s is to Him alone.

What are your thoughts wise sister?

7/03/2006 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger Rose~ said...

I think love obligates you to present your judgement of the action ... Does love make it possible to convince a brother or sister of what you are saying? No. I think it is very futile to try and try to get others to see our conclusions. We should make an attempt, but if they reject the teaching, then it is on their head ... it is their decision. If it is biblical teaching and they are a Christian who refuses, they are in for chastisement.

I once heard someone say that they did not want to share with a brother that one of that brother's behaviors was sinful because then, if the brother wouldn't forsake the activity, he would be responsible because he had been told. This was said as though it is better to leave someone in ignorance of what they are doing then to expose their mistake to right judgement, thus makibng them responsible to forsake it. I say hooey to that. People do need to hear your voice, even if they don't embrace what you say.

Share your conviction, but don't stress over whether it becomes the conviction of the one you share it with. Many things people have to figure out for themselves. Also - you are right - let the church decide if it is a fellow member of your congregation.

Thanks for saying I am wise - LOL.

7/03/2006 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger Nellie Bellie said...

If you feel a brother is in sin, confront them but be there to support them and work through it, if they don't feel it is a sin, pray for them. We are called to righteously judge our brothers, we are accountable for the body.

7/03/2006 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

You are wise Rose. ;P

Nellie I think those are wise words as well. My present concern is not really about sin but pertains to doctrine and fellowship. I am trying to fully understand how to be of one mind without being in agreement. ;-)

7/03/2006 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger nathaniel adam king said...

Kc, would you say you and I 'one mind' despite the fact that we do not seem to agree about anything?

7/04/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

In my heart there is no doubt that is so. ;-)

7/04/2006 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger dorsey said...

I don't know, specifically, what you're talking about, so take me with a grain of salt.

For me, relationship is above all, even doctrine (at least to a point). You do not have the right to coerce your brother, and doing so may rightly erect barriers to further communication. But in the context of relationship, the door remains open for dialogue and argument, just as it does here on the blogs.

It's one thing to say it, and quite another to live it out (I confess, I haven't). And if you're serving together on the same project/committee, etc., but believe different things, even greater difficulties can arise as your differing paradigms are reflected in your approaches to ministry.

Unless your brother is doing something immoral, illegal, or something that would put the church or others at risk, pursue the friendship first. Then, if you feel you need to speak up, it will be in that context.

7/05/2006 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger sophigirl said...

Dorsey made a good point here. It is much easier to be "of one mind" on the blog (Adam) than when you are on the same committee/project/share a room in the dorm, etc.

However, this is an issue that bothered my for a long time, too. How DO we speak truth in love? When truth, by definition, is devisive? And how are we to know when to draw the line? I give a famous example - was the Reformation a good thing or a bad thing? Just to have everything in the open - I am a PCA memeber, so I definitely see the value of the Reformation. :) But I hate to have been in Luther's position and thinking through the implications of my actions, or looking back on the 30 Year War, or seeing the numerous splits within the Protestant camp... Granted, it is doubtful that we will be faced with such monumental decisions in our lives, but the small ones can be as significant to a degree, don't you think?

7/05/2006 10:12:00 AM  
Blogger sophigirl said...

oops! That's what I get for not reading the content of the blog carefuly! You guys had this long discussion on the Reformation already, so I apologise for bringing it up again. I hope you forgive me in the spirit of love that we seek to promote here. :) However, the question still stands - when is it a good thing to "speak the truth" and and when is it better to be like Paul who became all things to all men? I guess he would be a good example to look at... Maybe I should do that. :)

7/05/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger Kitty Cheng said...

Kc, that is such a good question. I would sasy striving to be completely self-centered in condemnation is a wise thing to do. That said, I too find it difficult to decide when to speak the truth in love openly and and when to be 'accomodating' or 'agreeable' and become all things to all men.

I think following the Holy Spirit's leading is important.

7/05/2006 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Dorsey I share in your understanding. It's that "point" that's in question. It seems to float between various groups and individuals but is usually not well defined even for them. It seems to me that if that magic point were to be examined it might not be where some think it is now. ;-)

Alina you seem to know exactly where I'm at on this. The division caused by the Truth should be crystal clear but somehow the lines got blurred over time. I'm actually glad you commented on this post first. It is reassuring to know your reasoning led back to where I'm coming from. ;-)

Kitty I agree in all you said. I tend to believe that the key is to always be ready to give the truth in love. ;-)

7/06/2006 04:06:00 AM  
Anonymous Danny Kaye said...

You know my doctrinal beliefs. You know that there is an awkwardness between those of us who believe the basic doctrines of the Church of Christ, and other doctrines. But I believe I have come to a better place than I have ever been, regarding what you are talking about.

I have come to believe that, as Dorsey said, "Relationship is above all." I have made up my mind that if someone believes themselves to be a Christian and publically proclaims it, then I am therefore obligated to hold that person to the same standard of the scriptures as I hold my self, whether or not the person is a member of my congregation, world-wide movement, or even of the same doctrinal belief system. They have set a noble goal of being like Christ, and with that goal comes the expectaion that someone who loves Christ as well will help them along in that goal. All to be done in love. And all to be to the glory of God.

I do not expect everyone to grasp hold of my "spirituallity" without question when I point out sins or unspirituallities in them and follow blindly. I do, however, expect them to take the time to think about my words and weigh them out to see if there is any truth in my judgment. And I expect myself to do the same thing with the words and critiques of others, no matter what group they are a part of.

It has taken me years to get to this place. But now that I am here, the "weirdness" I once felt with members of other denominations has drastically been reduced.

And I do this without comprimising my doctrinal beliefs.

7/07/2006 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Jeff it seems that God is blessing you in so many ways and I'm really enjoying the overflow. ;-)

I would consider what you refer to as "your judgment" as being Church discipline and I agree that should be the same for the whole family. It really is so wonderful to know that even though we're few by comparison, the family is so much larger than just our denomination.

7/11/2006 03:51:00 AM  

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