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    "You are really cool you are married to an European!! How cooler can you be??"
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Friday, April 13, 2007

Why do you believe...?

25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6 (KJV)

Why do you believe there is any other work necessary;

A) for everlasting life

B) to give evidence of conversion for fellowship

What would that work be?

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Blogger Kc said...

My answers;

A)Only the work of God detailed in vs. 29 is necessary.

B) A profession at minimum. How else would you know? I think a good case can be made for water baptism seeing it is the answer of a good conscience toward God but I personally do not believe this necessary.

4/13/2007 04:39:00 AM  
Blogger Missy said...

KC, can I be honest? I thought so :) I will open up myself to criticism - I know this and welcome it.

A) Still working this one out. I am compelled by the preponderance of scripture to agree with you. But there is still some scripture that causes me to cling to doubt.

"I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 18:3

“Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” Matthew 7:21

“For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:50

Jesus says we will recognize one another by our love and by our fruit. Does God recognize us the same way?

I do not think the "fruit" is the requirement for salvation - but a necessary proof of faith? Can you really have faith if on every occasion you refuse the will of God out of distrust? The primary root of the word "believe" in your last verse means, "to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with" - hence my thoughts here.

B) To have fellowship with ME, I would say one must profess love for, if not favoritism, of the song "Space Oddity," have a desire to learn to play "Nothing Else Matters" on guitar and can jog with me and not laugh at my jiggle.

4/13/2007 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Spoken like a true Dorseist! I will reply soon Missy but I'm still laughing too hard at your requiremnts for fellowship!

4/13/2007 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Missy I think doubt is very healthy when formulating doctrine from scripture. The more doubt and uncertainty you wrestle to the ground the more definitive the doctrine. I know we are all responsible for what we believe and with that responsibility comes the authority to examine all evidence to our own satisfaction. I will offer my own understanding of these verses but I know you’ve got to find your own too. ;-)

Mat. 18:3 indicates we must accept God’s authority without question, as a child accepts her parent’s authority, before we will even accept His word.

Mat. 7:21 directly addresses those who accept Christ’ authority but not His righteousness. IOW they believe they can earn salvation through good works instead of the work of God.

Matthew 12:50 should lead us to be certain of God’s will. See vs. 29 above. ;-)

I think Christ said the world would know us by our love for one another but I concede that John clearly states that the love of God is not abiding in us if we hate our brethren so at a minimum I would say no fellowship is possible where hatred exist but would that necessarily indicate eternal damnation?

Missy I think you know I appreciate your current position, I respect your right to disagree and I always welcome your questions. ;-)

I am presently considering adopting your rules for fellowship.

4/13/2007 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger dorsey said...


Dorsist, indeed! Your answer qualifies you to hold office.

Viva la jiggle! (um, how about if I ride along side you on my motorcycle?)

4/13/2007 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger Missy said...

Well, whaddya know? The requirement for on-going fellowship happens to be progressive access to a motorcyle. In laymen's terms: you don't hafta have one to join, but ya gotta get one to stay!

4/13/2007 04:05:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

I had one once bu nearly killed myself on it. Does that mean I've fallen from grace? :~?

4/13/2007 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger Missy said...

You are now considered a martyr.

4/13/2007 08:09:00 PM  
Blogger Exist~Dissolve said...

I would say that doing the will of God reveals whether or not one desires to be reconciled to God. I think there is, in some traditions, an all too comfortable bifurcation between "faith" and "works" that does not do justice to Christ's teaching about the necessity of doing to the will of God (yes, "doing."). After all, as persons we are unified beings; our beliefs and actions are correlative, as that what we believe is what we do, and visa versa. Therefore, to say that what one "believes" is all that is necessary to salvation, I think, creates an artificial division in the person, a division never taught by Christ nor the apostolic writers.

Just like Abraham, we are justified on the basis of doing the will of God. After all, Abraham's "faith" was not simply revealed, but was actually located within his response to God--his faith WAS his leaving his homeland, his offering of Isaac, etc. Playing upon this, the blessed Paul calls us to the same faith as Abraham, a faith not of abstracted intellectual assent (couched in terms of "belief"), but rather an active faith that is a "doing" faith, a faith that engages our whole persons.

Anyway, just my $.02. Thanks for the thought-provoking post!

4/13/2007 10:44:00 PM  
Blogger dorsey said...

There's a risk of falling into semantics on the this point, but Abraham's "doing" was evidence of his "believing." Likewise, "doing" the will of God (which I interpret to mean Love God, Love each other) is not the act that buys us eternal life, but is the evidence (to ourselves) that we are in the body. Practically, though, it's trickier than that. I'm not sure where to draw the line. Well said.

KC, RIP. The world was not worthy of you, anyway. Hey, you could be the first Saint of Dorsism. We'll put a statue of you in the first Dorsist cathedral (just as soon as the tithes start rolling in). :-D

4/14/2007 07:14:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Exist~Dissolve welcome and thanks so much for adding to the discussion. While we might have the tendency to shred one another’s ideologies and philosophies around here I hope you’ll find nothing less than God’s love in Christ and always feel welcome and comfortable in sharing your understanding. If you ever find otherwise please don’t hesitate to complain! ;-)

You wrote, “I think there is, in some traditions, an all too comfortable bifurcation between "faith" and "works" that does not do justice to Christ's teaching about the necessity of doing to the will of God (yes, "doing."). “, and to this I can only agree though we might debate what the necessity is. I think we agree in spirit concerning beliefs and actions but I also think it profitable to split a hair or three on this one. ;-)

While we agree that we act in accordance with our beliefs, where you would say that what we believe is what we do, I would say that what we believe will define whether or not we do as we hope. For example, three men each hope to do the will of God and secure eternal life. One man believes that nothing short of a Holy war against the ungodly hoard is God’s will and in so doing he secures for himself an entrance into heaven. Another man might believe that nothing short of living in accordance with either his own moral convictions or an adopted religious creed is God’s will. The last believes that nothing short of God’s unconditional love can assure him any favor in God’s eyes and provide him eternal security. Each man then acts in accordance with his belief. The first man murders them he perceives to be against God. The second man does what seems good in his own eyes and seeks to appear righteousness before God wearing only his own “filthy rags”. The third does nothing but the work of God and believes on Christ Jesus, His Son. Each of these acted according to their belief yet all believed they did the will of God. Which one can be said to have done what he believed? ;-)

With respect to Abraham I think it should be said that he accomplished many good works through his faith but that he found righteousness in the eyes of God, not because of what he accomplished, but because he believed God.

I look forward to more discussion. ;-)

4/14/2007 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger Missy said...

KC, I was having a little fun, but I sincerely LOVE this discussion. Sometimes this is a hard issue to open up with while in the walls of ones congregational peers - and one where doubt persuades me to be silent until I have it "figured out." How quickly I find myself in the dark!

I find Exist~Dissolve's response a compelling argument, and very nearly where my logic leads me. And as I was working through this yesterday, Ex~D (if I may?), I also settled onto Abraham's righteousness.

"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

But someone may well say, 'You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.'

You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,' and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
James 2:14-26

I see throughout scripture a correlation between faith and action. Seeing as I fight God on just about everything, can this mean the evidence of my actions indicate I have no faith?

"But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." Matthew 15:18-19

I know, because of forgiveness, the pure and futile in my heart can coexist unto salvation, but my actions indicate what is in my heart - even when I am not aware. So to think I believe and yet do these things seem juxtaposed.

4/14/2007 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger Kc said...

Missy if we’re not having fun then it is likely we have taken ourselves or at least our understanding a bit too seriously. ;-)

If you maintain this position then you certainly won’t be alone. While each add their own nuance both the Roman church and Lordship Salvation proponents hold the same position economically. Either faith leads to works or the absence of works proves the absence of faith but essentially eternal life does not exist where mans works are not present.

While I perceive a direct correlation between our faith and our works I find no correlation between our works and eternal life. IOW our works have a direct implication on our faith but the gift of eternal life is dependent solely on the work of God.

I do concede that salvation is holistic in that everlasting life, once given, at the very least must be nurtured in order to grow but by definition it cannot be “dissolved” (grin) or cease to exist.

4/14/2007 11:33:00 AM  
Anonymous rrbj said...

I seem to think that most of us are nearly on the same page as for our salvation is concerned ?In plain words "LOVE" is the key for our works, because if we love one another as God commands us to and pray for someone that may go astray and do as God said in Matthew 28 go ye therefore and share my Word with everybody and have faith and believe in Me then God will give us eternal life! Also if you do not accept Gods plan for our salvation by baptisim to be born again then how can the Holy Spirit dwell in us to lead and guide us because The Holy Spirit helps us to have Faith- Hope- and charity which the greatest one of these is "LOVE "! Just rambling as usually cause I'm hyper , I just eat a rotten banana and peanut butter sandwich that Corry suggested a while back ? Blessings to all and have a Blessed Sunday ! Ron.

4/14/2007 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger Missy said...

"While I perceive a direct correlation between our faith and our works I find no correlation between our works and eternal life. IOW our works have a direct implication on our faith but the gift of eternal life is dependent solely on the work of God."

KC, I think I kinda grasp what you are saying here, but not fully. I am sensing something akin to enlightenment, but having some difficulty describing it. :)

When one is saved through faith, you're seeing it is a one-time thing? You know me, I have to visualize, so what I am seeing is a bridge through which you get to your destination. Let's say that bridge is washed away by a flood (just a thought looking out my window!) But you are still at your destination, regardless of the further existance of that bridge. Whereas I have been envisioning a bridge that continues to exist, but I cross back and forth. Seeing as it is God's will that Christ would lose none that are given (John 6:39), your analogy would make more sense.

I'd love to hear more thoughts on this!

4/16/2007 08:27:00 AM  
Blogger Kris said...

Kc said...
My answers;

A)Only the work of God detailed in vs. 29 is necessary.

B) A profession at minimum. How else would you know? I think a good case can be made for water baptism seeing it is the answer of a good conscience toward God but I personally do not believe this necessary.

My answers would be the same as yours KC.

However I would have to ask a professing brother why he/she refuses to be baptized. Is it lack of understanding what water baptism really is? Is it fear/nervousness of being in front of people? Both are understandable, many people are bound up by fear until they continue in His word and the truth sets them free. Or is one of the first steps of continuing in His word to be set free the act of being baptized?

What is it "in" a professing believer that keeps them from being baptized by water?

I don't ask these questions concerning baptism to take away from the subject of this post. I just raise them for the possiblity of another post for discussion once this one is exhausted.

4/16/2007 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Missy I would say you are very close to a clear perception of my understanding. I would say we are granted eternal life one time at the moment we believe in Christ Jesus but that our salvation is an ongoing process. Our life on this earth must still be redeemed and we have yet to receive our heavenly body. Most would call the redemption of this life sanctification but I think that is contrary to the biblical meaning just as regeneration has taken on a whole new meaning under Systematic Theology.

Kris it’s great to hear from you brother! I agree that baptism is an important matter, so much so that many of our CoC brethren consider it necessary for reconciliation. Perhaps “not necessary” is an understatement but I think you understand I meant that I would still consider a man my brother who is born of the Spirit but has yet to be baptized. I think Baptism would be an excellent topic for discussion.

I hope everyone is well. Please give our best to all. April ask about you all often. ;-)

4/16/2007 03:31:00 PM  
Blogger Kc said...

Bro, Ron I did it again! Please forgive me I did not intend to overlook your comment. I warned you about Corry! (hehe)

4/17/2007 03:41:00 PM  

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